Har Nof is a normal community now. Back then, there was no bookstore, no pizza shop, and no falafel store. We had few neighbors and had no simchas to attend, no bar mitzvahs, no weddings, no brisim, no vorts, no shalom zachars. That is not what you expect when you are told the school is located in Jerusalem. That is not what you expect when told that it's a school for beginners. You imagine that they are going to introduce you to Orthodox Jewish communal life. Personnel
Moodus had various people walking around, giving shiurim, guys from different yeshivas like Torah v'daas, Lakewood and the Mir, guys who are getting two free weeks in the country, one even who became a Rosh Yeshiva at RIETS of Yeshiva University. Today, he has 2,684 shiurim and articles on YUTorah.org. He was at Moodus but had nothing to do with Machon Shlomo. There was a rabbi from Detroit and one from Passaic. They were not Machon Shlomo staff. Nearly all of the rabbis that I encountered at Moodus were not the same ones that worked at Machon Shlomo.
In particular, the guy who ran both places was aloof at Moodus. You only interacted with him if you were invited to his dinner table, but he didn't talk much. Yet, at Machon Shlomo he dominated the place with his very dour view of life. Here's what he was like.
He taught his talmidim that most questions beginning with ‘Why?’ (unless they are in the form ‘Why does Rashi or Tosafos say this?’) are more likely than not to be products of the yetzer designed to deflect from a full Torah commitment. In question and answer sessions, he refused to answer as many questions as he was asked. First the questioner had to acknowledge what was really bothering him and how the information sought was relevant to his life.
That's from a memorial article written about him. Somehow the author deemed all that to be praise. But here's the translation: you are not allowed to ask questions as they come from the evil part of you. He didn't hit you with this at Moodus. As I said, he was aloof there. He let the hired hands (some paid with free vacations in the country) handle you.
The other main guy at Machon Shlomo, the one who ran the daily hour and a half long Chumash shiur, was in Israel during my time in Moodus. Only one of the three Gemara rebbes was at Moodus. All but two of the rabbis I met at Moodus were not Machon Shlomo rabbis.
Machon Shlomo had no visitors and no guest speakers that ever came to the yeshiva. (Two came briefly to siyumim on the first two books of Chumash. This was held in an apartment down the road.) Neighbors rarely even stopped by to join the minyan. We were isolated. Even within the school we were isolated as most of the small staff, most of who worked part-time as Gemara rebbes, were instructed not to speak to the bachurim about anything but the Gemara shiur. All hashkafa, halacha, and aitzah could only come from the founder, who was an unlearned baal habayis, and his 29 year-old son in law who was a baal teshuvah 6 years out of a Christian college when the place was founded. On top of that, neither of them was around very much. I remember being alone with the students most of the time. If you visit Machon Shlomo today, it's the same.
Atmosphere
The atmosphere at Moodus was generally laid back, except for a sales pitch about Machon Shlomo. As I explained, we spent most of the day playing sports.
The atmosphere at Machon Shlomo was super intense. There were three levels of Gemara shiurim for the first year students, and the feeling of elitism from the higher to the lower was palpable. The same held for the second year students toward the first. As one former student wrote, "In fact, guys are hand picked for their competitiveness and non-questioning nature. The rabbis know that the guys will hit the ground running and compete with each other to learn." This is all very different from Moodus.
Sales Pitch
At Moodus, we heard repeatedly about Machon Shlomo which they described as the Ivy-League yeshiva in Israel. Again and again, we were told how lucky we'd be to go there. But one had to be admitted. You had to have the right stuff. There was this feeling the whole time at Moodus of wanting to be approved of. That was one part of the atmosphere that was not laid-back. It turned out that the approval process actually wasn't too involved as a five minute conversation was all anyone had with me. But I had gone to an Ivy League school and that's all that mattered. They were looking for such guys on which to build their reputation. I have a friend who was told by one of the two men who ran the place that he "wasn't good enough" to go there.
The Ivy League Talk vs. Machon Shlomo
Machon Shlomo had and has nothing in common with the Ivy League. I talk about this extensively in another post. But here's a bit of it.
Ivy League schools have a huge variety of academic programs, 1000s of course offerings, beautiful campuses, visiting faculty, world-class faculty, massive libraries with millions of books, scores of foreign language offerings, diverse student bodies.
Princeton offers 42 doctoral departments and programs. Cornell has 16 schools and colleges. The University of Michigan (an Ivy equivalent) has 275 degree programs. Columbia has three undergraduate schools, thirteen graduate and professional schools, a world-renowned medical center, four affiliated colleges and seminaries, and more than one hundred research centers and institutes.
Machon Shlomo offered essentially two classes - Gemara b'iyun and Chumash with Rashi. The Gemara class came without any background on the Gemara and its strange style. We didn't even get a vocabulary sheet. No Ivy League school would just toss you into Gemara like that. Library
Ivy League schools have huge libraries. Harvard's library has 16 million volumes, Yale has 12 million, Columbia 11 million, Cornell 8 million, Princeton 7 million, and Penn 6 million. That's six of the 18 largest university libraries with the Ivy's being in 1st, 3rd, and 5th place.
Machon Shlomo had no library, only a half-shelf of books. Even today the beis midrash has no bookshelves. As shown earlier, the walls are bare.
Faculty
Ivy League schools also have sizable and distinguished academic staff. Yale has an academic staff of 4,869 including 67 members of the National Academy of Sciences, 55 members of the National Academy of Medicine, 8 members of the National Academy of Engineering, and 187 members of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences.
Machon Shlomo had a staff of four rabbis, all of them effectively part time, one of them for second year students only, three of them gave the gemara shiurim, so students not in that Gemara shiur had nothing to do with that rabbi. So really you interacted only with a single rabbi and also the baal habayis and the new baal teshuvah who ran the place. At night a student and his chavruso would meet with a tutor for an hour to prepare for the next day's Gemara shiur. Even today, Machon Shlomo has a tiny staff, a fraction of what I saw at Moodus. Here's the staff page listing on the Machon Shlomo website as of July 2022. It's been this way for months.
Foreign Language Study
Ivy League schools have extensive foreign language course offerings and requirements for foreign studies departments. For example, the Princeton program in Near Eastern studies requires two years of Arabic, Hebrew, Hindi, Persian, Swahili, Turkish, or Urdu. The Stanford Eastern Studies department requires students to demonstrate Chinese, Japanese, or Korean language fluency at the third-year level or above, to be met either by coursework, examination, or a degree from a university where the language of instruction is in Chinese, Japanese, or Korean. Here are the Hebrew courses offered at UC Berkeley:
HEBREW 1A Elementary Hebrew 5 Units
HEBREW 1B Elementary Hebrew 5 Units
HEBREW 10 Intensive Elementary Hebrew 10 Units
HEBREW 11A Reading and Composition for Hebrew Speaking Students 5 Units
HEBREW 11B Reading and Composition for Hebrew-Speaking Students 5 Units
HEBREW 20A Intermediate Hebrew 5 Units
HEBREW 20B Intermediate Hebrew 5 Units
HEBREW 30 Intermediate Hebrew 10 Units
HEBREW 100A Advanced Hebrew 3 Units
HEBREW 100B Advanced Hebrew 3 Units
HEBREW 102A Postbiblical Hebrew Texts 3 Units
HEBREW 102B Postbiblical Hebrew Texts 3 Units
HEBREW 103A Later Rabbinic and Medieval Hebrew Texts 3 Units
HEBREW 103B Later Rabbinic and Medieval Hebrew Texts 3 Units
HEBREW 104A Modern Hebrew Literature and Culture 3 Units
HEBREW 104B Modern Hebrew Literature and Culture 3 Units
HEBREW 105A The Structure of Modern Hebrew 3 Units
HEBREW 105B The Structure of Modern Hebrew 3 Units
HEBREW 106A Elementary Biblical Hebrew 3 Units
HEBREW 106B Elementary Biblical Hebrew 3 Units
HEBREW N106 Elementary Biblical Hebrew 6 Units
HEBREW 107A Biblical Hebrew Texts 3 Units
HEBREW 107B Biblical Hebrew Texts 3 Units
HEBREW 111 Intermediate Biblical Texts 3 Units
HEBREW 148A The Art and Culture of the Talmud: Advanced Textual Analysis 3 Units
HEBREW 148B The Art and Culture of the Talmud: Advanced Textual Analysis 3 Units
HEBREW 190B Special Topics in Hebrew 3 Units
HEBREW H195 Senior Honors 2 - 4 Units
HEBREW 198 Directed Group Study for Upper Division Students 1 - 4 Units
HEBREW 199 Supervised Independent Study and Research 1 - 4 Units
HEBREW 201A Advanced Biblical Hebrew Texts 3 Units
HEBREW 202A Advanced Late Antique Hebrew Texts 3 Units
HEBREW 202B Advanced Late Antique Hebrew Texts 3 Units
HEBREW 203A Advanced Medieval Hebrew Texts 3 Units
HEBREW 203B Advanced Medieval Hebrew Texts 3 Units
HEBREW 204A Advanced Modern Hebrew Literature and Culture 3 Units
HEBREW 204B Advanced Modern Hebrew Literature and Culture 3 Units
HEBREW 206 Ancient and Modern Hebrew Literary Texts 3 Units
HEBREW 298 Seminar 1 - 4 Units
HEBREW 301A Teaching Hebrew in College 3 Units
HEBREW 301B Teaching Hebrew in College 3 Units
At Machon Shlomo, Hebrew was not studied as a language. To this day, they offer no course in Hebrew grammar or conversation! They do not study the language. Nothing. Yet they claim to be a 'text based' program. They tell you how they examine the text. The claim was used back in Moodus and is used till this day. If you are going to focus on the text and the text is in Hebrew, shouldn't you study Hebrew too? That's what Ivy League schools do. At Machon Shlomo, they tell you to learn Hebrew by "breaking your teeth on it." No Ivy League school would use such an expression.
Meanwhile, the men's BT schools Ohr Somayach, Shapell's college for men, Dvar Yerushalayim, Machon Yaakov, Orayta, Aish Hatorah, Mayanot, Machon Meir, Ohr Temimim, Toras Dovid, James Striar School, Yeshiva University, and Temimei Darech all offer a class or a series of class in Hebrew grammar and language.
Exposure to other schools
Ivy League schools have exchange students and visiting professors and students. At every college I attended, I met students from other schools as they visited friends or took classes at the college.
MS had nothing to do with any other yeshiva and not only that but certain persons at MS regularly engaged in disparaging all the other schools such that students jokingly referred to those schools as "the enemies." The result of that was a discouragement of visiting other schools on one's own.
Personal Freedom
Ivy League schools are famously liberal and free. Students construct their own majors, design their own courses, and engage in any number of clubs and projects.
At Machon Shomo, there were no electives. Rooms, roommates, seats, and chavrusos were assigned. We were not allowed to lead davening or to date. Machon Shlomo did not engage in any projects, no chesed projects, no publication projects. Nothing. It was dominated by a singular perspective such that many students jokingly referred to it as McClone Shlomo.
Introductory Classes
Ivy League schools and all colleges have introductory classes. That's the old 101. For example, at Stanford University (an Ivy equivalent) in the political science department you'll find the following:
POLISCI 101 Introduction to International Relations
POLISCI 102 Introduction to American Politics and Policy: Democracy Under Siege?
POLISCI 136R Introduction to Global Justice
POLISCI 153Z Strategy: Introduction to Game Theory
POLISCI 213E Introduction to European Studies
https://politicalscience.stanford.edu/graduate-program/current-courses
The Brown University political science concentration requires (not just offers) two introductory classes.
2 Two introductory courses from the following:
POLS 0010 Introduction to the American Political Process
POLS 0110 Introduction to Political Thought
POLS 0200 Introduction to Comparative Politics
POLS 0400 Introduction to International Politics
https://polisci.brown.edu/undergraduate/concentration-requirements
Duke University, an Ivy equivalent, offers an array of introductory courses:
100-199 Introductory-level undergraduate courses; basic skills/activity courses; foundation courses; Focus program courses
POLSCI 101 Introduction to Political Science
POLSCI 108 Introduction to African Studies (DS3 or DS4)
POLSCI 145 Introduction to Political Economy
POLSCI 160D Introduction to Security, Peace and Conflict
POLSCI 175 Introduction to Political Philosophy
POLSCI 189FS Introduction to Machine Learning and Computational Models in the Social Sciences
And those are just the ones with the word "introduction" in the title. There are many other introductory courses in 100-199 range. For example:
POLSCI 170FS Liberty and Equality: Ancient and Modern Perspectives CCI, EI, CZ, SS
POLSCI 171FS Political Polarization in the US: Causes and Consequences SS
POLSCI 172FS Racial Attitudes and Racial Politics in the United States
POLSCI 176FS Human Rights and World Politics EI, SS
POLSCI 180FS Hierarchy and Spontaneous Order: The Nature of Freedom in Political and Economic Organizations (C-N) EI, W, SS
POLSCI 185FS The Politics of Language SS
POLSCI 186 Women and Gender in the Middle East
And these are just the intros to political science. Every department in the university has introductory classes. So there will be an introduction to macro economics, intro to micro economics, intro to econometrics, intro to sociology, intro to social psychology, intro to geology. A typical college will have scores of introductory courses. Doesn't all that sound interesting?
And wouldn't it be helpful too? The Maharetz Chajes said, “The importance for a beginner in secular fields to have clear introduction is obvious, but it is even more important when studying Torah.” He cites the Yerushalmi (Shabbos 87a): “any Torah without a foundation is not Torah.” Says Maharetz Chajes, “That means Torah without an understanding of basic rules and concepts....” (Introduction to Toras Nev’im in Daas Torah)
So when you come to the so-called Ivy League yeshiva, when you come to a school for newcomers to Orthodox Judaism, you reasonably expect to attend introductory courses. Machon Shlomo didn't have any of those. There was no introduction to Judaism, to hashkafa, to Gemara, to Hebrew, or to halacha. There was no introduction to anything! As I said, there were essentially two classes: Gemara iyun and Chumash with Rashi. The method for the former, was to open up Baba Matzia to daf beis and start reading. "Snayim ochazim b'tallis." The method for the latter was the same: "Bereishis bara Elokim." Rashi says....
Most other BT schools do have introductory courses. Ohr Somayach has a course called "Introduction to Judaism."
The followup course - Philosophy 102-103, Issues in Jewish Thought, is a part II of the introduction. Now that's more like an Ivy League school.
Ohr Somayach also offers an introduction to the halacha:
Many BT schools offer a class in the taryag mitzvos. This also qualifies as an introductory class. Aish Hatorah:
Introduction to the Bible (BIB 1000)
Biblical Midrashim (BIB 1220) Introduction to the Aggadah
Orayta introduces students to halacha via five different classes
and to Jewish philosophy through a slew of classes including Introduction to Chazal:
Machon Shlomo had none of this. Do you want to say that introductory classes are goyish? (Maharetz Chajes didn't think so.) Calling yourself the Ivy League yeshiva is goyish.
Campus
Ivy League schools also have beautiful campuses with elegant buildings that are sometimes covered in ivy leaves, hence the ivy in the name Ivy League. Here's Harvard:
Here again is Machon Shlomo:
Compare to Aish HaTorah:
Now that looks more like an Ivy League school.
I would say the last place I'd describe as an Ivy League yeshiva is Machon Shlomo.
So What Do They Mean?
By Ivy League, do they simply meant elite? Well, what's elite about it? The learning wasn't on a higher level. (I attended other places afterward.) The staff wasn't more elite than any other place. There have been all kinds of prestigious staff at the various BT schools. Many of them are or have been run by talmidei chocham of note. Ohr Somayach in Israel had Rav Dov Schwartzman, z’l, the son-in-law of Rav Aaron Kotler, z'l, Rav Schwartzman founded and led the Talmudical Yeshiva of Philadelphia together with Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetzky and was known as a Talmudic genius. Ohr Somayach also had Rav Aharon Feldman, who is now on the Moetzes Gedolei Torah of the Agudah and is the author of several books such as The Juggler and the King, a presentation of commentary from the Vilna Gaon on several aggadatos. Ohr Somayach also had Rav Nachman Bullman, translator of numerous books including Book of Our Heritage, Jew and His Home and Rite and Reason and rabbi of several Jewish communities. It also had Rabbi Uziel Milevsky, z’l who was the Chief Rabbi of Mexico and author of the two volume Ner Uziel of commentary on Chumash. In the summers, Rav Yisroel Reisman, the Rosh Yeshiva of Torah V’Daas and the maggid shiur of the legendary Nach shiuruim serves on the staff at Ohr Somayach. Aish HaTorah has had a whole slew of scholars including Rav Chaim Malinowitz z’l, who was the chief editor for the Artscroll Gemara and Rav Yitzchak Berkovits, who is the mara d’asra of Jerusalem’s Sanhedria Murhevet neighborhood and a Rosh Kollel. Ohr Somayach in Monsey had Rav Yisroel Simcha Schorr, the son of the gaon Rav Gedaliah Schorr z’l and a general editor of the Artscroll Gemara. D’var Yerushalayim had Rav Aryeh Carmel, z’l, the author of the five volume Strive for Truth and the classic Aiding Talmud Study. They have also Rav Boruch Horowitz who was a translator of Rav Hirsch's Horeb and a scholar in his own right and Rav Yoel Schwartz, who is the author of 200 books. Yeshiva University has world class scholars like Rav Hershel Schachter and Rav Dovid Bleich. Machon Shlomo has no advantage on the other BT schools in terms of prestige of faculty. To my knowledge, nobody on their staff has written any book or produced a substantial lecture series. Actually, I'd say that their staff was inferior to most of them.
So what do they mean by Ivy League? Do they mean top students, "the best and the brightest" as their website currently phrases it? MS pursues guys from elite schools. Does it get them? It gets a few. There's a myth that they are running some kind of Cal. Tech graduate program in physics. The reality is not like that. There's usually an Ivy League or Ivy-equivalent (Chicago, Stanford, Berkeley) guy or two, sometimes three. Other BT schools also have such students. I know of a UC Berkeley undergraduate and law graduate who went to Aish HaTorah, a U. Chicago grad. who went to Shapells, a Harvard grad. who went to Shapells, a Penn and Columbia graduate who went to Shapells, a Columbia guy who went to Kol Yaakov, a Yale guy who went to Kol Yaakov, a Haverford graduate who went to Kol Yaakov, a Michigan graduate who went to Kol Yaakov, a University of Toronto PhD graduate who went to Ohr Somayach. And I know a guy who taught himself Hebrew and Yiddish in a short time who didn't go to college at all. He went to the BT program at Shar Yashuv. Here's the Penn. Wharton, Columbia guy who went to Shapell's.
Here's a Harvard guy who went to Shapell's: (from Arutz Sheva)
Here’s the graduate of Shapell’s who went on to get a PhD from Harvard University.
So before moving to Boston to pursue further graduate studies, he and Yael spent a year at the David Shapell College of Jewish Studies/Yeshiva Darche Noam in Jerusalem. “That year in Israel really accelerated my knowledge,” Aldrich said. “We both studied text full time. We came back to Boston fully observant.
Aldrich received a Ph.D. in Government from Harvard and his wife received an M.B.A. and an M.A. in Jewish Community Studies, both from Brandeis University. ( https://cssh.northeastern.edu/jewishstudies/faculty-profile-daniel-aldrich/)
Here's a Harvard and Columbia graduate who went to Ohr Somayach:
Harry Rothenberg, Born and Raised: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Columbia University, BA: 1988, Harvard Law School, JD Magna Cum Laude: 1993
Yeshivat Ohr Somayach Jerusalem: 3 years (https://ohr.edu/articles/harry.html)
Here's another Harvard guy who went to Ohr Somayach:
"The program provided me with an introduction to Judaism that challenged and stimulated with its willingness to address fundamental questions and to examine the limits of belief." Nicholas Retter, BA, Harvard University (https://ohr.edu/1595)
Here's a Yale graduate who went to Ohr Somayach:
Rabbi Jeremy Kagan grew up in Hawaii and attended Yale University, where he received a B.A. in Philosophy. While traveling in Israel during college he began his Torah studies, going on to learn in Ohr Sameach, Meshech Chochma, and Heichal HaTorah B’Tzion. (https://midreshettehillah.com/great-school/meet-the-directors/)
All the schools have guys like this -- not that it's the most important thing in the world. ("I would rather be governed by the first 2000 people in the Boston telephone directory than by the 2000 people on the faculty of Harvard University." William F. Buckley) But it impresses people. People think that every Machon Shlomo guy is from one of these places, but most are not. They nearly all are college students or graduates and usually from respectable schools -- Rutgers, Wisconsin, Purdue, Union College, Cooper Union for example. Those are fine places but not Ivy League or Ivy equivalent. (Again, not that it's so important, but that's what MS is advertising.) Smart hard-working people go to such schools. But most American Jewish youth go to places like that. Machon Shlomo is not distinguished in that way.
So what did they mean when the told us at Moodus that Machon Shlomo was the best yeshiva, the Ivy League yeshiva for BTs? What about it is Ivy League? Is it just a marketing ploy? Yes, I think that's mostly what it was.
I believe it was also a reflection of the way the two founders saw themselves, as elite, the owners of the only viable approach to kiruv. As a former student described it:
That was one of the truly cultish things about machon shlomo- the daily reinforcement of the idea that they had the patented ‘correct’ view of judaism and no one, not artscroll, not the chassidim, no one really ‘got it’ but them.”
They believed that had the best program design, which as you see here, was a very simple design: Gemara iyun and Chumash with Rashi and no trips, guest speakers, warm get-togethers, or library. They called that focusing on the basics. They deemed all that other stuff that other schools do to be frivolous and time-wasting. Trips you can make on your own. Halacha you can read on your own (even though they didn't have a library). That's what they told us. Their idea was that they'd get top students to focus on the Gemara and Chumash text, and that, along with the hashkafas of the two founders, would make them the best school.
If that's the approach be honest about it. The portrayal as being an Ivy League anything is not accurate. Other BT schools try to make themselves bigger and give as much content as they can. Machon Shlomo was the small school that made itself smaller but advertised itself as Ivy League. If Machon Shlomo was going to be different, it had to say that and shouldn't have described itself as it did and should have been clear that it was nothing like Moodus.
In sum, the Torah Institute at Moodus (including its portrayal of Machon Shlomo) and Machon Shlomo itself were two different worlds back in the 1980s. They were two completely different institutions. In my opinion, this constituted deceptive recruiting. A former student described it in a way that matches much of what I found:
I will say that they have a 2 week summer program where the head rabbis come to the US and do a little road show, complete with BBQ's and science and torah lectures mixed in. The atmosphere is very laid back and the kiruv part gets ratcheted up by the end. You get tefillin and learn about tzitis, etc. You get Kelemen style lectures that are supposed to put aside your doubts. The rabbis are nice and smart and credible. You figure, it can't be all that bad.The yeshiva focuses on getting as many doctors, lawyers, scientists, mba's as possible to the yeshiva. The strategy is: get these guys whipped into shape in 2 years (they get you to agree to 1 year, then make you feel like a loser if you don't keep going) then married and off into the world.
This is all quite manipulative. If you watch Steve Hassan's description of his indoctrination into the Unification Church (aka Moonies), it's similar. Some flirtatious Japanese girls invited him to a party. That led to an invitation to a weekend retreat on a remote estate where there was lots of sports and barbecues and some indoctrination that felt weird, but the bus wasn't leaving for a few days so he was stuck. Credibility for the indoctrination was helped along by the presence of people from fancy colleges (who as it turns out are just as susceptible to being indoctrinated into cults as anyone else) and gradually the indoctrination took hold as they manipulated his idealism in an environment of isolation and control. As Steve describes it, nobody joins a cult voluntarily. They are tricked. They don't realize what's happening to them.
Post script: The Moodus camp is not used anymore. Rav Schwab was niftar, and Machon Shlomo isn't exactly the same as it was then but it's mostly the same. They still don't teach Hebrew, Mishnah, mitzvos, history, or Chassidus, and the halacha shiur is only 1 hour a week (still inadequate for beginners). I hear that it's not an overview; it's only about tefillah. Their philosophy of focusing on "the basics," hasn't changed. They use the phrase on the website, even though they don't teach the basics, they just study Chumash with Rashi and call that basic. The Gemara rebbes do talk to students now, and they go on one trip a year, most years that is. Har Nof grew from being a construction site to being a normal community. There also is a small library. It's a junk room really, with broken schtenders and used Gemaras clogging it up. But they have a few books. They give a two week introduction to the Gemara now before opening on page 2. Also, the schedule is available online, so you know before you commit to going there what classes are available. It's mostly accurate. However, the website contains what I deem to be deceptive recruiting because it still refers to the place as "The Ivy League yeshiva" for the "best and brightest."
See, they are making the claim even though, as I have tried to explain, it's not accurate, not even close.
In sum, Moodus was an act of deceptive recruiting to an alarming degree.
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